Meet Petra Hasenau, TYPO3 Association Board Vice-President, Germany (Application Podcast S02E10)

Jeffrey A. McGuire  0:09
welcome to Application the TYPO3 community Podcast

Petra Hasenau  0:16
Hi, my name is Petra Hasenau and this is Application the TYPO3 Community podcast sharing your stories, your projects and the difference you make. Celebrate the TYPO3 community on Application the TYPO3 podcast meet the humans behind the technology

Jeffrey A. McGuire  0:34
one do welcome to Application the TYPO3 community Podcast. I'm Jeffrey A McGuire. You can call me jam. And this is where we celebrate the TYPO3 community sharing your stories talking about your projects and the difference you make in around and with TYPO3 CMS. On today's episode of application, that TYPO3 community podcast it was my incredible pleasure and privilege to speak with the Vice President of the TYPO3 Association Board Petra has now and talk about her path into and around TYPO3 and her role as the human face and the project face to so many aspects of TYPO3 Somehow we touched on so many threads that all came together into the same direction of community being a group of people and people working together make the best results. And everything from giving away your best ideas in open source makes them better to remembering to welcome newcomers and talk with other projects that we don't even work with. I really hope you enjoyed listening to this conversation as much as as it was my privilege to speak with Petra for an

hour Why don't you tell us who you are, and what you do.

Petra Hasenau  2:03
My name is Petra Hasenau. During the time, I do a lot of things in the TYPO3 community I organized the TYPO3 user experience week, at last the TYPO3 initiative week when it was possible. Now. Yeah, I'm proud to say I'm the vice president of the TYPO3 Association.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  2:26
Madam Vice President, it's a privilege to be speaking with. And you also run a company called

Petra Hasenau  2:34
I'm the CEO of our family company. It's a cybercraft GmbH sitting in the upper hearts workbench for agencies and now working most of them about what TYPO3, we decided to find new ways. Now the coaching is the main part of our company. And yeah, it's a lot of good stuff. Yeah. And especially with Joey, who was a programmer in this company. Yeah, he's the owner of greater laments, Elson and manager, and I think we live totally the TYPO3. And the wording inspiring people to share is almost around us. And the beginning, it was very, it was very hard for me to understand why do you give the extension enter things for free and not earn the money for them? Right? Yeah, because at the beginning, I came from the industrial area, I was working as an worker, I was an employee, I understand you must earn money. But now after a lot of time, I learned very fast that it is better to give it away. Because when you give it away, you'll get 10 times more back then if you pay money for it.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  3:55
Yes, you do. And that's the difference between traditional economic thinking and the the open source world that we that we move in. It's not that so we need to pay the rent and feed our children as well. Of course, the traditional economy, especially based around making things, right physical objects is an economy of scarcity. There is there are limited resources, there are limited people and there are limited ideas, and therefore we have to protect them and defend them. And our idea itself is so valuable that we can't possibly like it's a secret and that's our competitive advantage. And I think that that is still true in general in the sort of industrial part of the economy, like maybe you know how to make a particular steel alloy or a battery or whatever, that's better, fine. But even in that world, someone like Elon Musk a few years ago, released all of the patent technology patents on batteries because he said we need to make the world a better place and get away from burning fossil fuels. So, everybody, please go use this idea to make to help save the planet. And so if this and then of course, that's the bridge to our open source world where we have learned, hey, ideas, there are a lot of ideas, and some of them are better than others. And when we give our ideas to our friends and colleagues and peers, and even our competitors, the good ones get better. And the bad ones just kind of go away, and they get out of our way. But we can also use the good ones that started with somebody else. And, and so if I put my best ideas out there, they're going to come back to me, like you say, 10 times better. And that's an awesome power, right? And it makes it it's also infinite and renewable, and the hard thing, then it becomes not having the idea, but like, doing it the best, and building other things with it, right? And then we help each other have a better and better starting position to then do the other things. So what I do know of your family, you are kind of living the TYPO3 all the time lifestyle. How did you get involved with TYPO3? How did you discover it?

Petra Hasenau  6:12
I got in contact to the people. I learned the people in a very personal way. Because I was able to knew a lot of things behind the person's at the beginning. I don't know which person I talked, but last time,

Jeffrey A. McGuire  6:29
but what was the beginning? Was it the you had a website at work? Or did you discover it through through

Petra Hasenau  6:36
through joy? I discovered TYPO3 through my husband to joy, who was a programmer and worked for TYPO3, since 2003, and 2009 When

Jeffrey A. McGuire  6:49
I was confused now because I always call him yo and I'm just trying to figure out whether I don't call him Joey myself. But anyway. Right? Not only his he like being around and TYPO3 forever, and incredible contributor and mind and great guy to have a beer with. He was one of the technical editors on the book that I helped put together with the community, that TYPO3 guide book, which I have gotten some really nice compliments on it lately. And I just wrote an article for someone about it. And since we're here, thank you, and thank you, you and everybody else who was involved for helping me get that thing done. And apparently, you know, okay, so, right. So you met, yo, and he was already involved in it. And then he kept saying, Look at this cool stuff I'm doing and you're like, are you crazy? You're Do you just give that stuff away? What are you thinking?

Petra Hasenau  7:42
Yes. And at the beginning, it was so that joy told me, okay, I worked here and I know a lot of people but I know them only for the coding stuff. I don't know the background, I don't know if it if the person is married, if he has children or something else. And no one of those people knows that we have a little company who earns money was TYPO3 And all of the people thought we have so much things to do in the in the company and we have no time for for work. So though then when my time comes, and I stepped in and talked with the people and told them, okay, we have a company and you can ask us if you have an if you need some help, or if you have some work and something else. So I want the contact person at first to tell Okay, we have a company and you can ask and to get in connection with them. Because later one Joey told me, you know, this and this and this about the people. I worked with them about many years, and I didn't ever know this.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  8:53
But this is but but you but he's he's such an I say this with love. But he's such a typical geek, right? If he Yes. However, for a decade or more he like wrote code and criticized code and corrected things and work with people and made great ideas. But like, he never asked them when their birthday was he never had a beer with them. And he never told them that he's actually trying to make a living at this. He was like just too busy. Like okay, so you became the face of the company? Yes.

Petra Hasenau  9:27
Yeah, and the more most interesting things are happening not during conferences, it's in the between the sessions or after this session in the evening, when you will stand with the people at the bar and drink a beer or glass of water or something else. Order then, yeah, you have Yeah, that's the best time for connecting each other and also for for for company.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  9:57
Yeah. And that's the and that's the human connection right? The sessions are more formal. And you say, Okay, this is how I've implemented this new API. And this is how I built this marketing function. This is, you know, whatever it is, right? But then afterwards with the conversations, that's the the power of the community. And this career that I'm in coming from the company, where I used to work to starting this company, was the result of having a few 1000 of those conversations. And then what I started doing instinctively was, you know, here's someone young, who's telling me something that they're really excited about. And I'm like, Oh, well, okay, if you like that sort of thing, then I know, go talk to her, because she maintains a library for that. And I know, she's looking for help. And then another time, it's like, somebody's looking for an intern and like, oh, well call that kid I was talking to, and then or like, partnerships, or deals or whatever. And I've done like, just keeping a vague kind of idea of who does what, when, and then seeing people in the old world, we would see each other once, twice, three, four times a year and on the conference circuit, or what have you. And that's been, it's it. For me, it always comes back to the people and for this podcast, when I proposed starting it, I said, it's a community podcast and one of the taglines that we have that I'm going to ask you to read a little bit later, it's meet the humans behind the technology. Right? So that's, that's what it is for me.

Petra Hasenau  11:17
That's totally right.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  11:19
Do you build do you program? Do you what do you do with TYPO3?

Petra Hasenau  11:23
Yeah, I'm the contract person. I'm the person in our company who who do the the main stuff behind and when the customer come by phone or contact our company? I'm the person who answered and in the TYPO3 world and the person who, yeah, when when you are on camera, or conference or something else. And as either new, there are new people there. And they are a little bit shy. And don't I don't ask them because I'm so shy. And, and so I, when I see this, I will try to invite them and I Okay, be a little bit more open. And what do you have four questions, and can I help you and I bring them to two people.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  12:11
Nice. That sounds really fun. Petra has an out newbie bother. Let them sit in the corner. And and

Petra Hasenau  12:20
be calm. Yeah. And the thing he grows a little bit more and more and more. And a few days. A few weeks ago, there was a TYPO3 camp in Munich. And I, I was an honor for me to have the keynote there. And then I talked about this about my first steps and the TYPO3 community and especially for the new people who are in the during the campaign who are there and invite them to talk to the set should not be shy and that the networking is very well. And it's very helpfully because

Jeffrey A. McGuire  12:56
you're the best example of of doing exactly what you're talking about. Right? Yeah. And

Petra Hasenau  13:00
the best example for it because when I start in 2010, with the first visit as Novateur, I never thought that I would be in the position of the Vice President and I can that I can do so much for the community, right? Because it is very important to stay in contact. And now it grows more because I'm the contact person for the CMS garden, where we met regularly and talked with other CMS. I love

Jeffrey A. McGuire  13:33
that organization. I'm also a member and I've I helped write I don't know the last couple of versions of the of the description for TYPO3. I don't know if if my stuff is still in there. I have to have to check the newest edition. But um, yeah, so CMS garden is a cool thing. For people listening outside of Germany, a bunch of CMS is that you might have heard of and a few that you might not have. They're all open source. The origin story, if I recall, rightly was going to the big Technology Fair in Hannover open source projects, they didn't have a modality for non commercial like for not companies to have a booth in the content management web section. And so the people from the National Drupal Association started calling people and got WordPress and Drupal and TYPO3 and con Tao and scientific CMS and forgive me I forget there's a whole list and then mate was able to like get the money together to rent a booth together and then everyone could have swag and posters for their systems. But they made a rule that talking with a trade fair visitors they were only allowed to talk about open source and content management and not sell anything and not put anything else down. And it's been an entirely positive organization, which I really admire. And there's a guide and a comparison matrix and they put out book every couple of years in German and English. It's a fantastic bunch of people.

Petra Hasenau  15:03
Yeah. And especially they're in Hanover, they have a very cute outfit with a head and

Jeffrey A. McGuire  15:10
wait, wait, I'll be right back.

Petra Hasenau  15:12
I have it here too. I will pick it up to just a moment please.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  15:19
Now, this doesn't work with my headphones. Of course, this comes with a gardening apron as well. And that's the that's the look at the at the conferences. There you go. Now, my headphones don't work with this. So and this proves this proves how great the right swag is. Also, by the way, this is great swag, because it's it's so natural. And so light. I'm thinking right now I'm trying to figure out for for my company. And like for a sort of, you know, end of year package for my team and stuff. I'm trying to figure out what to do next. I think paper and pencils are pretty great. I don't want to do big plasticky things. And I don't want to do stuff that nobody uses. I'm thinking about that could be a possibility. This is a great segue, though. It sounds to me like your path into your company. And becoming the face of the company and the sort of the the organizer and the greeter and the welcome. That must be your personality, because that's what you do in TYPO3 as well. And to the point that people wanted you to be on the association board, how long have you been on the board now? A while?

Petra Hasenau  16:28
Yeah, it's a while I never realized how long it was because the time is fleeting. It was so so so fast over. But what I want to say also is i It's It isn't only the CMS garden path that I take that I made, because on the other hand, I'm working with the ombudsperson group in the ombudsperson group, to realize a better code of conduct for TYPO3, because we don't want to have a code of conduct from others CMS, because every CMS is special, every CMS has other background. And so we're that was sitting with four people together and create the new one. And our mission is that we want that everyone in the community feel well, and welcomed, and we will work with it. And on the other hands. And another part is not only to CMS, gov and this and, and the contact person from the academic committee. Also, I'm in contact with the university and so on. And on the third hand, I'm in contact with other CMS, the Community Health Group take place with a lot of Drupal guys and WordPress and so on. And they meet one one time in the month. And then we Yeah, it's it's I'm very proud to sit there and to talk to people who are not living in Germany. And when I think about who, where they are sitting around the world and

Jeffrey A. McGuire  18:13
living in TYPO3.

Petra Hasenau  18:16
Yeah, but in this case, we are not talking only about top three it it's about the experience about the behavior and the feel. Well thing is community health.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  18:27
Terrific. That's terrific. The Drupal, people, the community organizing, and their association cares really, really deeply about getting a lot of that stuff. Right. That's great. That's fantastic. So I think that you can take your the positive experiences and the things that that are that are great in TYPO3 and tell other people about that and sort of share your best ideas like we were saying, right, that's really cool.

Petra Hasenau  18:49
And during the camp times, during the sessions, I start the session TYPO3 less technical, and ask in during the session what the people want to hear because they're not the community are not only coders, they're a whole community and what they want and so on. Or I had another session name was help my my husband is a coder. How can I how can I live with him? Oh, can I solve my problems and and so zips difficult a self help group. That's nice. Yeah, sometimes it's a problem. When you want to talk or given information to your husband or your partner. And he's coding and you don't know Okay, should I disturb can just run because it's it's not very good than when he is out. He needs one hour or two to come in again. But on the other hand, it's very important or should I talk wrote in on Slack or what kind of possibilities You.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  20:01
Okay, wait a minute. You. Dinner's ready? Like, do you do that sort of thing in Slack just in case? Maybe? Okay, maybe

Petra Hasenau  20:16
in this case, it's easy, because then I can open the door, the kitchen isn't so far away from the office, and then the smell.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  20:27
Right? And that's a very polite way, isn't it? He just comes by himself, then. Yes. I was wondering, could you tell us your perspective on the TYPO3 Association, sort of what it what it does and what it's for, and then maybe what the board does within that.

Petra Hasenau  20:47
So the TYPO3 association is the part in the community who pick up the money, the money from the members of third TYPO3 Association, and try to say, find a way and give a direction and mission from four TYPO3, and to put the money and give it to the people in the community to do the right stuff.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  21:15
So you might set the direction, right? And you might you might give some sort of inspiration or whatever, and then see who wants to do things in that direction? And then support them, right.

Petra Hasenau  21:26
Yeah, and will give we will give them the possibility, then not only to work in their own office, then to work together, but normally, our thing is that we will make it possible that they can sit together and work together. So

Jeffrey A. McGuire  21:44
doing contribution Sprint's right,

Petra Hasenau  21:47
because some some things are easier when they sit together, and then they get in contact, and then they get in person contact, then they can work better for for the whole life.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  22:01
The best. That's that whole community. That's a whole community building that we were that we were talking about, right?

Petra Hasenau  22:06
The best example I had was during the TYPO3 user experience weeks, because then they the people work together, it was a interesting group, because they, they were coders, they were designers, UX people, user experience people. And then they live in their own world and work in their own world, coders haven't, not other than designer and so on. And now they must work together. For some people, it was the first time to go out and to work with other people phone calls. It wasn't so easy. And during the day, sometimes it happened that there were Oh, I couldn't understand and why don't they understand this. But so they were one week here infesting borg in the middle of the hearts, it was a hotel and in the middle of the woods, you can't go to another place, they're only into the woods.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  23:03
And then it's a very beautiful trap.

Petra Hasenau  23:06
And they work there and maybe they have some times during the day, some difficult few of things. In the evening, they have the possibility to stay in the bar and drink beer. Water then they talked personally to each other, and was no no personal fight or something else. Like that's, that's very important.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  23:34
Yeah. And that builds so much understanding. And there's also when when you can, when you can sit in the room with with a few people that you don't normally sit with the information moves much faster, and there's a you know, excitement or ideas move faster. And that all of that can then turn into great results that come later, when you've also built the trust but I love the the cross disciplinary approach that you have with it with the UX week where where it's all those different people who like and it's still, for better or worse, it's still better to do that in person, even if we were all on Slack and it would be okay. Yeah, that energy is great. And the other thing I think that I want to highlight about the TYPO3 Association compared to some other ways to approach community that the TYPO3 Association wants to make it possible for people to contribute and does quite a lot actively and physically to make these Sprint's happen to give sponsorships and also to sponsor experimental ideas or new projects on the TYPO3 Association. Thank you very much also sponsors this podcast so you know, that's great for that's great for me, at least hopefully other people I really like the slightly more active nature of of the TYPO3 Association and I wonder, can you tell me anything? Maybe your opinion on the TYPO3 Association and community As a democracy,

Petra Hasenau  25:02
yeah, it's it's a great democracy. It's not that one, the President or the Vice President told this and that and that's the law or something else. Yeah, it's it's democracy. We are the people, we talk to the people. We took all the information we get and put them together. Yeah, I think it's 100%. Democracy.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  25:29
Yeah, it's nice, because the Association for a lot of the budget proposals and project ideas, there's a there's a vote that happens on on whether whether to support it, and how much to support it. I think that's, that's amazing. And because the sort of TYPO3 community is a little bit unusual, because the the creator of the software stepped out of any active role quite a long time ago. And there have been a series of people and personalities who stepped in for a time to do different roles, but it hasn't always been the same person. And because there's not the like, they call it the benevolent dictator, then the association has a really strong role to play and the product owner of the of the software, and that, you know, that the core lead, and then all these sort of committee groups, Marketing and Communications and security and hosting and infrastructure and all these things. They're, they're actually quite important, and sometimes better, coordinated, and sometimes less, but it's kind of a democratic society somehow. I love that about being in the middle of this community. And you are our vice president. What one word would you use to describe TYPO3?

Petra Hasenau  26:43
Community?

Jeffrey A. McGuire  26:44
Nice. What's your favorite feature of TYPO3

Petra Hasenau  26:47
So people inside the community? Oh, ah.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  26:52
Alright, what feature having to get you? What feature? Would you like to see added to TYPO3

Petra Hasenau  26:59
more people?

Jeffrey A. McGuire  27:02
Okay, you're in, but you're in trouble now. Because the next question is, what feature would you like to see removed?

Petra Hasenau  27:09
Oh, oh, hmm. Normally, I think about the good things and forgot the bad things. So

Jeffrey A. McGuire  27:22
I think that TYPO3 is a bit of a sleeper, I would say, I think it has been doing great things on the web and helping people and it's got some unique technical perspectives, and it offers a really valid set of use cases that differentiate it from other systems. And I think that not enough people have heard about it, just historically things happened, whatever, where should TYPO3 go in the next few years? What should what would you love to see happening around TYPO3 going forward?

Petra Hasenau  27:59
I think the main part in this case is to go outside of the German region, outside of Europe, we will go out to the world, we will show the world what TYPO3 is what we what they can do with TYPO3 and get in contact with with with the with the people. Yeah, we will go out and get in contact with them.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  28:27
Yeah, maybe if we have to see what our what our new reality is. But I love the efforts around mentoring. I love the international expansion work in general, I was incredibly excited when you know, when we found out that the government of Rwanda use TYPO3 and needed help. And then the TYPO3 community and association stepped up. You know, I thought that was an incredible story. And I love that TYPO3 is doing well, quite well in India. And they've had sprints. I mean, I think there's there's there's so many exciting possibilities, and open source Mateus both Lesniak an association colleague of yours talks about the TYPO3 community as a force for changing societies as well because of this democracy concept and participation concepts and I'm really i He has a bigger vision of this thing than I had ever thought was possible and I was quite impressed by that. It's very

Petra Hasenau  29:18
impressive what Mateus do for the NT did for the TYPO3 Association and for for TYPO3 he is a person who knew so much thing and he is so lip half so so yeah, he bring it out and he have so many ideas and it's totally cool that he is in the board. I like the board also because yeah, Mathias board NASDAQ from Scandinavia there, but we go more from Canada, from Quebec, then Rochelle fuca from non from France, and so on and it's great that the people work as volunteers in the TYPO3 community for the community. And

Jeffrey A. McGuire  30:09
actually, as you as you're saying that I realized that even though we think TYPO3 is a little bit too centered in Central Europe, the association and the people contributing already represent a real diversity across where we are as a community, you know, you know that he has been really active in different roles. And now Paul Hansen in the United States is doing a lot and you know, there's all these little roots and little flowers that are that are that are coming out, and I think it's, um, yeah, I'm really excited to see where it goes in the next couple of years. Now, tell us something that you wish people knew about TYPO3, but they usually don't,

Petra Hasenau  30:48
I will wish people who are new in the TYPO3 community or in the TYPO3 world, please don't be shy. Please ask if you have questions. Because I met a lot of people who told me Oh, I thought this guy or this woman or this person, and I want to get in contact, but I don't try it. Because it's such an important person.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  31:15
Oh, who am I? Yeah, yeah, and imposter syndrome. And

Petra Hasenau  31:21
so please ask, please get in contact. And when you think you see the face, and the face is not very, it's not smiling at the moment. Maybe he's concentrated, and he's working, and I

Jeffrey A. McGuire  31:34
open the door to the kitchen and the smell of dinner will walk and then and then, and then he'll come talk to you. Yeah, but um, TYPO3, community slack, look on TYPO3 dot org for the page to join that it's a very, very friendly community channel and way more friendly with newcomers then then some places, although a lot of the big CMS are really good at that. But anyway, so the thing you'd like to share is just come and talk with us. We're happy to we're happy to welcome you. As we go forward with this podcast, who do you think I should invite? Who that so we call this a suggested guest? Who else should I invite? Oh,

Petra Hasenau  32:14
most of the people, you Why is it. So like, you're

Jeffrey A. McGuire  32:19
right, I have a great list, I have a great list behind the scenes that is nowhere near done. So I'm still always discovering people. It could even be someone outside of TYPO3, if you think we should meet them.

Petra Hasenau  32:33
Okay, please don't invite Joe because he had the better voice and the better sound on camera. And so

Jeffrey A. McGuire  32:43
it's been really, really, really, really nice talking. Because I haven't even seen you're not the only one. But I haven't seen you for a couple of years at this point. So thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me. It's such a pleasure and you do you do so much for the community. And you not only provide that human welcoming face to people, but you also show very clearly how important it is to have a community that's not just coders right? And and how you can form great symbiotic relationships with people of the different roles to make to make this thing really useful and and make the world a slightly better place. Thank

Petra Hasenau  33:20
you very much. I'm so proud that I could be here.

Jeffrey A. McGuire  33:25
Thanks to the TYPO3 Association for sponsoring this podcast. Thank you b13. And Stephanie Kreuzer for our logo. Merci beaucoup Patrick Gaumont, TYPO3 developer and musician exraordinaire for our theme music. Thanks again to today's guest. If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe in the podcast app of your choice and share Application, the TYPO3 Community Podcast with your friends and colleagues. If you didn't like it, please share it with your enemies. You can find show notes, links and more information in our posts on typo3.org. Remember, open source software would not be what it is without you. Thank you all for your contributions.